Way to GO, P.T.!
I LOVE PT!
ok now Codify
& don't forget
to let the Po-
"Anyone who is uncomfortable with a bathroom in Washington can find a private, gender-neutral one instead."
Really? That's an ideal but we're not there yet.
The Stranger just watched a web feed, didn't they?
Compare and contrast this with the story at https://www.porttownsendfreepress.com/2022/08/16/women-seeking-civil-rights-stand-up-to-mob-hatred-and-intimidation-in-port-townsend/ from a local actually on the scene.
I believe in trans rights and I find the wording of Jaman's challenge to the YMCA staffer ("Do you have a penis?") offensive. I hope she eventually apologizes for it. But there does seem to be a certain cohort of cisgender male "allies" who seem to take way too much personal pleasure in yelling at and intimidating cisgender women (particularly older ones) many of whom have long histories of feminist activism but who, for whatever reason, balk at sharing women-designated private spaces with trans women, particularly those who exhibit what historically has been considered a "male" affect in appearance or speech as the YMCA staffer apparently does. (I'm aware that many women, perhaps most, don't share this discomfort, but this doesn't mean the objectors don't have valid personal reasons for it.)
It appears that these misogynistic men comprised a large number of the pro-trans protesters who loudly and almost violently disrupted Jaman's press conference, where they would have made a much more powerful and positive impression by merely standing silently with protest signs, at least while she was reading her statement. Fox News and other trans-hating right-wing media will surely feast on this horrible footage for a long time to come.
@4 you're trying to conflate criticism with violence. It's extremely slimy and everyone can tell what you're doing. So being told that your opinion is hateful and wrong falls under the category of intimidation now? Give me break. No one was intimidating that old bigot. You also trotted out the old TERF chestnut of calling anyone who criticizes a transphobe a misogynist. You obviously have a problem with trans people.
Exhibit A: "who, for whatever reason, balk at sharing women-designated private spaces with trans women"
You clearly don't consider trans women to be "real women" otherwise you wouldn't have made this comment. Why don't you wear your hatred on your sleeve instead of pretending to care about trans people and their dignity? Your comment was so nasty that I had to create an account. BTW I'm a man. Feel free to call the FBI and tell them you're being "intimidated" by a "misogynist".
@5 I don’t know anymore what a man or a woman is insofar as it has now become a social construct that is entirely self-defined. I do know what a male and female are and the person in the dressing room with a penis is a male and the complainant a female. Make of that and the clear immutable distinction what you wish. Al the shrill complaints, threats, and cancellation efforts will not change it.
@5 Oh, I know you're a man, and an angry one. No need to spell that out as you strike me as ~exactly~ the type of testosterone-poisoned rageaholic I was criticizing. Cis men who support trans women need to swallow their egos, stand back and allow cis women to be the public face of ally-advocacy. The sight of a large, imposing, heavily tatted, leather-clad man screaming in the face of a much older woman (no matter how theoretically justifiable it might be) does not advance the cause of trans acceptance in any conceivable, real-world way. It just doesn't.
For the record, I agree with and support the Washington state rules on public accommodations. What I don't support is treating older feminist women with arguably-antiquated views as if they were the Proud Boys. If you truly support trans rights and are not just using the movement as an outlet for inchoate cis-het male rage (as I strongly suspect you and too many other men like you are), you shouldn't either. A modicum of empathy, respect and restraint, even when it seems undeserved, will do much more to achieve the goal of equality and dignity for all.
@4 You are just another pathetic bigot. Oh, and when bigots like you call me a misogynist, I know you understand you have no real argument to justify your bigotry.
@4, You (and older cis-lady feminist) can use a private bathroom if you want to be absolutely sure to avoid contact with people you don't like. This is all within your control, and you can take care of it without telling other people what to do. Why not try? Being older should absolutely not give one permission to be a loudmouthed bigot - what's up with that!? PS I'm a older feminist cis-woman too, and I do not want you carrying a flag for me. No way.
You've got to be kidding me. You're going to ignore the abject violence (yes violence, numerous assaults against us, including against elderly people) and the rabid menacing mob pushing against our bodies, screaming non-stop in our faces, grabbing at us, stealing from us, behaving like vicious mindless brainwashed automatons.....hating us without knowing a thing about who we are, what we fought for in our lives, what we actually believe....because hey, they were told to hate us, so they do.... .and they were told to trample our First Amendment rights, so they did....you're not going to mention any of that? You're going portray what went down in Port Townsend on August 15th as something to celebrate and emulate? I can't imagine a more misleading, dishonest, and incompetent article about what happened. Nor can I imagine a strategy more likely to disrupt LGB rights than your strategy of closing your eyes and abject misrepresentation....it is a strategy that deepens the serious damage already done by the hijacking of the LGB by the T.
@11 Lucy honey, there was no violent mob involved in this incident. There was just an older lady who decided to ask some pretty invasive questions because she couldn't mind her Ps and Qs. She should use a private bathroom if she's so sensitive. It's super easy. No drama, Llama.
As a feminist I find it infuriating that folks demanding trans rights have chosen women who have fought long and hard for women's rights as their chosen enemies. It's not the feminists passing anti-trans legislation. It's not the feminists asking about people's genitals. It's not the feminists who are the problem and by repeatedly using the slur TERF, trans rights activists aren't doing themselves any favors. Conservatives and religious RWNJs are going after trans people (see Texas, see Florida, etc.) And women who have fought long and hard to be treated like human beings actually have the right to refer to themselves as women (as in pregnant women) - the trans rights population that insists the erasure of terms be erased to include them is just another form of misogynist violence against women. If you were born female and are now a trans male and you get pregnant you are pregnant person (if that's how you choose to identify yourself). If you were born female and identify as a woman and have always been a girl and then a woman your entire life and you get pregnant and call refer to yourself as a pregnant women, that does no harm to any trans person. I am sick and fucking tired of liberal women and especially feminists always being blamed for the harm misogynist men and conservative women do to others. TERF is a nasty ass fucked up term and if I am going to be called a TERF by the very people who expect me to respect their rights as trans people, well it's not going to go well. I don't have to erase my existence in order for you to be who you are.
It’s almost like this is a complex issue that is also pretty niche that is being used to further create division amongst all of us although it affects relatively few of us. It’s easy to understand the arguments of all sides but difficult to come to a clear conclusion about what to do, kind of. Of course males for a very long time have been invading female spaces. Of course trans folks have right to exist and self identify their gender as they see fit. Of course everyone should just mind their own damn business. Of the sign on a door is not going to stop a predator from preying. This issue is as complex as it is easy to so,be. Mind your own damn business. Get dressed and shower wherever the fuck you want, as long as you are minding your own damn business. Males should contain their maleness if they are going to be in girl and woman spaces as there is a real epidemic of cis gendered male violence against female bodies and in exchange those males who are women get to be safe from the leering vileness and discomfort that they surely encounter in male locker rooms.
Difficult but easy. Now let’s discuss the shit that actually matters like what we do with our collective money.
Fucking fat fingers and auto correct. Should say “of course the sign on a door” and should “is as complex as it is easy to solve”
And to those who can’t deal, like has been said before: use the private bathroom.
This is a yawn issue being used to chop us up. Anyone who can’t understand the “nuance” is so entrenched they are hopeless anyway.
It’s a fucking huge distraction from us all slowly being brought to a boil, slowly lol.
Y'all deserve each other. You asked for it and got it.
@14 Wel-l-l-l ... actually in this case it ~was~ a feminist (self-described) who asked about someone's genitalia. She kinda deserved what she got (though as I already said in far too many words, the optics of that protest weren't great). But I agree that the trans rights movement generally, being relatively new to mainstream public discourse, hasn't yet quite gotten the nuances down in terms of whom to put on blast and whom they would be well-advised to more or less ignore. Older, trans-critical feminists are mostly in the latter category, except for the ones who explicitly ally themselves with the fascists who are just as eager to put ~them~ back into the kitchen barefoot as they are to marginalize trans people. I hope you are not one of those.
@17 Please show us some 20 year old papers that reference pregnant people. This medical person has never heard it until I winced in hearing an NPR story as announcers used the term. Like nails on a chalkboard, along with LatinX (rarely used by actual Latinos in the Spanish speaking world). I always considered a pregnant female a woman by definition if pregnant, even if she is 13. Or if referring to a specific pregnant 13 year old, fine to call her a girl. Men can’t be pregnant in my cosmology. If that makes me a Transphobic person because I won’t drink the Kool-Aid, I wear the term proudly and am in fine company.
Some of the excesses we are observing, like so called gender affirming surgery, will in a few years be the subject of societal handwringing and legal repercussions akin to the reversal on opiates for chronic pain that was medically endorsed by many, now known as a human tragedy.
@13 Westy honey, there most definitely was a violent mob involved, on Monday August 15th. You are confusing that mob scene, when a hostile group of mostly men physically threatened a group of women, with the original incident several weeks earlier (when 80-year old Julie Jamon, was stunned to hear a MALE voice in the women's locker room while she was in the shower. She looked out and saw a man, in a woman's bathing suit, watching four or five little girls undressing. She reacted by demanding that he leave the women's locker room. She was defending the hard-fought right of girls and women (FEMALES, since you're likely to pull some gender-woo out of your thumb) to privacy. There was nothing "transphobic" about her reaction. What there was, was a MALE refusing to respect the boundaries of FEMALES.
Understand a few things here, Westy: Julie Jamon has been swimming at that pool for almost twice as long as darling Clementine has been alive. And in the course of her long life, Julie Jamon helped found a shelter for women and children, victims of male violence. Julie understands the risks girls and women face, and the need for spaces free from males. The YMCA has only two locker rooms, which until fiftenn seconds ago, were understood to be for females in one, males in the other. Four months ago, when Clementine was Clem, I doubt anyone - especially the parents of the little girls at the YMCA - would have expected a 19 year old male to be in the locker room with those girls, or with an 80 year old woman either. But since Clem uttered some magic words, all the rest of the world is now supposed to throw away any safeguarding concerns for girls and women. Not going to happen. You can believe in any religious cultism you wish. You have absolutely no right to force everyone else to believe it, too. The mob threatening women speakers on August 15th was misogynist as hell, and no amount of lipstick will change that piggishness. The Stranger's "coverage" of the events in Port Townsend is so out of touch with the actual facts, it might as well have been written by reporters on Pluto.
@22 none of this has anything to do with what happened in the bathroom in Port Townsend. Everybody keeps getting distracted. Let's all just consider simmering down and miding our own business in the bathroom. Or, you know, using a private bathroom if that's tough for whatever reason.
@23 I don't want anyone standing up for me in the bathroom, no mater what they understand about my "risks" as a woman. I'm no activist, I don't yell, and I don't want you or Julie or anyone to believe anything. I just want you and her and everyone else to mind their own business in the bathroom, no matter how long they've been on this earth. Seems pretty easy.
Just to be clear - if any person, including a biological man wearing female clothing - interacts with my child on the subject of sex or sexuality without consulting me - or considers themselves an authority on who can see them in states of undress - they will experience a parent who has no fear of consequences. Dangerous stuff. Hope the trans activists are aware of how seriously parents take this stuff. They may unintentionally put their activist followers into a situation they can’t control. Please also consider a parent will prevail in any conflict - no matter how important the cause may seem - against any adversary involving their children, as it has been since the beginning of time, and in the animal kingdom. Be careful out there ladies and gentlemen.
The link to this article is Fuck TERFs. The fact that the term TERF is slur being hurled at feminists by the trans community at feminists they believes are not trans inclusive is what my comment (and the subsequent conversation regarding) is about.
No one ever said you can't pregnant woman? Really? I think you might want to read the news outside of the Seattle bubble (or the SLOG website) once in a while.
Pretending this is about semantics is the problem. Pretending that the existence of girls and women, born female, and using terms as they have been used and continue to be used (pregnant women, breastfeeding, etc.) is somehow not just an affront to, but also an attack against trans people is fucking obscene.
There is a reason people refer to themselves as transgender and not transsexual (which they used to, btw, and now that's an offensive term, too). One's sex at birth is biological. Only people born as females, who have a functioning uterus and reproductive system can get pregnant. A transgender girl or woman, born biologically male, cannot ever be a pregnant person, no matter how they identify. There is no biological or scientific or medical miracle that will ever make that happen.
The existence of biologically born females who continue to exist as girls and women throughout their entire lives (no matter who they have sex with or how they choose to present themselves to the world) are not a threat to the trans community. Insisting that girls and women do X (whatever X is) to please the trans community is just more misogyny. Period.
Are there women who are anti-trans? Absolutely. Are there men who are anti-trans? Absolutely. And yet oddly enough there is no movement by the trans community to tell men they can't refer to themselves as men. There is no equivalent of TERFs when referring to men the trans community feels are anti-trans. Nope. this is purely an attack on women, specifically feminist women, who are being told if they do not do as the trans community demands then they are shitty not real feminists and they must be doxxed and bullied and harassed as such viciously and publicly until they comply.
Fuck that and fuck anyone who thinks that this acceptable.
Here is the real truth and cover your transphobia with whatever terms you like. Thanks for sharing the other side of the story that nobody wants to hear. The women at the rally specifically align with The Proud Boys who were also present at the event in Port Townsend. The huge amount of support for the transgender proclamation might not be what was expected, and yes there was a crowd because people care and want to stop the hate - but the way that the transgender population is being treated, and also the violence that was instigated at the event is unconscionable. You bet people are enraged. Speakers literally attacked people and other women went around pushing their cameras into transgender people's faces and yelling and screaming and generally inciting violence. The violence was on both sides and is being very hyped up for the TERF agenda. Julie is a highly privileged woman who has no idea the harm she is doing to vulnerable people. The very domestic violence shelter she helped with has come out in support of transgender people and decries the sentiment these people are making. So stop with the hate, misinformation and white cis-LGB fragility and find some kindness and acceptance in your hearts. Supporting transgender people will not eliminate women! That is a ridiculous statement which is a smokescreen for your transphobia: https://xtramagazine.com/power/far-right-feminist-fascist-220810?fbclid=IwAR1WZYM93DGgiAOX1qRLQVF4vSjU4WcbfBmBGqHochRwSXWmVPDM-oelolI
I am sure this will somehow be bigotry (if you want to make it so), but I take issue with a mayor who has a history of tweeting things such as “as the mayor, I am legally required to call myself a pervert and a deviant,” or “I basically have Vaush politics.”
Ummmm, Vaush believes in legalizing child porn. NOT ok. Ever.
The fact that a woman saw someone checking out little girls undressing and called them out on it (the same woman who created a shelter for domestic violence victims), and you have a problem with her... well, that is an issue. Is violence against certain people ok in your book? You call people bigoted, yet you use a term that is a misogynistic slur. Therefore showing off your hate.
You are standing with, and supporting people who are admittedly ok with sexual deviance.
You really have missed the forest for the trees.
I hope that one day, you can navigate the world of people as people. Not just people as causes. Just because someone supports the same things you do, doesn't make them a good person, and aligning yourself with them despite that is NOT a good look. You are not actually being open minded, when you buckle down and refuse to look at anything other than the one piece of the agenda you want pushed.
You could try and explain to me that a man who calls himself a woman is a woman for 1000 years, I could wish and hope I will see the light, but I just don't see my brain letting that happen. I can't force my brain to deny what is objectively true and replace it with an ideology. Same way I can't force my brain to think Jesus is the son of God. The trans movement reminds me of the Christian Coalition of the 90's with the fervent and aggressive messaging that anybody who does not fall in line 100% is evil. People will disagree with no malice intended. It happens, don't take it as a personal indictment. BTW, could not give less of a shit who sees me naked, but that's just me.
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