A good (and good and early) Slog AM from Nathalie.

Since EverOut posts don't have comments, I just want to hijack this thread to register my polite feedback on this item that went up yesterday, "Where to Find Great Bagels in Seattle":
https://everout.com/seattle/articles/where-to-find-great-bagels-in-seattle/c4342/

This is a great list, and there are a number of bagel shops on this list I've really got to check out. I'm just a bit miffed that it's missing my favorite bagel shop in town, Eltana. With the possible exception of the easy-to-overlook Bagel Oasis, Eltana makes the best bagels I've had in Seattle. I do sometimes go to Old Salt and Zylberschtein's, but not in the same class for my particular tastes.

And just to clarify what I just wrote @1, Old Salt and Zylberschtein's are wonderful places and totally worth checking out. I don't want to sound like I'm disparaging them. Moreover, it's great that we have so many bagel shops that make such a variety of bagels and that each place is making them in their own distinct way that comes out just a bit different.

Also, I acknowledge that there's a certain crowd out there that just can't stand Eltana's bagels.

@1 regularly commenting on multiple sites? Get a job sir!

It should have been DEIM and there would have been no issue. M or Merit.

"According to the Seattle Times, "This year, more than 75% of customers benefited from federal premium tax credits, which were implemented by the Biden administration." Those tax credits enabled people to purchase plans that cost around $540 a month before the subsidies for only $70 a month."

That's a federal subsidy to the insurance industry. And tax credits don't do much for the poorest. I'm glad some people got access to healthcare who otherwise wouldn't, but that's the worst possible way to go about it. Classic Dem move.

I can hardly wait for the upcoming list of candidates who had a hot and sweaty one-nighter with someone on the Stranger Election Board!

"Thanks, Joe. You simply do not know what you've got until it's gone."

this is as close to an apology as we'll ever get from TS

omfG FOUR MORE YEARS
of his Horrific visage?

the head* may tho I doubt
that bod’ll survive four
more years. I give it
two, max - then
it’ll just say
no Mas.

They’e doing
Wonderful Things
With heads these Days
and Ellon’s Promised me
I could “live” FORfuckingEVER

in a bell jar
over his Mantle
hookd up to the
Innernet, 24/7 This
Guy don’t Need no stinkin ‘sleep.’

Sleep when you’re Dead.

unless your MUX’s
Best Friend!

It’s
djt vs
the Constitution time already!

‘[Senior U.S. District Judge John] Coughenour replied [to the first of Many trumpftopian psycophants], "Frankly, I have difficulty understanding how a member of the bar could state unequivocally that this is a constitutional order. It boggles my mind."’

gonna hafta get
used to it, Judge
There’s a Millon
more where that
One came from.

@4 DNC Democrats have done their best to ignore that a large majority of Americans want medicare for all like every single industrialized nation on earth. Never mind that universal access to healthcare is the ever hot campaign issue that could win it for our side. It's difficult to please the peons AND corporations, you know. Apparently Harris could afford to forget she once co-sponsored a medicare for all bill in the senate ... but hey, they'll claim that sucking up to corporation and screwing your base is real politics.

If WA had "adequate" mental health funding, that crazy fuck would still have gone crazy.

Glad he didn't have a gun.

@9 that's an incredibly defeatist attitude. Do you feel the same about cancer treatment for cancer patients, or appropriate care for any other medical condition, or just mental health care?

@8 You'll surely get better health care under the Trump administration. Keep cutting off your nose to spite your face... that always works out well.

By the way, it's nice how you've now pivoted to health care and income inequality from Gaza. Hmmmm... I wonder why that is? How the weather in Saint Petersburg?

Wearing tactical gear and allegedly carrying pepper spray, handcuffs, and a badge, he entered the building and claimed to be a federal agent conducting "recon" and threatened to arrest staff members. Authorities recommended him to Mental Health Court.

Since when is practicing terrorism is a mental health issue? I know lots of people with various challenges and they do not dress up in "tactical gear" to threaten innocent students. If the suspect has some history of mental challenges, why was he allowed to get "tactical gear"? And if the suspect were a black guy, would he have been routed to the Mental Health Court?

@1: I'd like to also see a basic chart that shows price per bagel at the various places.

@9, 10

wtf!?

THIS IS
The United Fucking States!

WE DON'T
DESERVE
HEALTH
CARE.

'wtf?
Why?"
you may query.

it's cuz
WE are
EXCEPTIONAL

kinda
Cool
eh?

"Don't forget about bird flu:"

You don't need to keep clucking reminding us, you mother cluckers.

Bullshit Stranger!

"The incident ... highlights the serious consequences of inadequate mental health funding in our state."

https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/mental-health/new-uw-behavioral-health-hospital-limits-admissions-amid-defense-dispute/

The incident highlights under-funding of the legal system and the resulting inability to use funded mental health facilities and beds for those who won't voluntarily do funded outpatient.

@8 and @4. Perhaps you both forgot Democrats tried for over 18 months to get something better in the face of Republicans obstructing. This was the best they could get through.

@17 sounds like they're not very good at their jobs. "A" for effort I suppose?

@11 Claiming your opposition is disloyal is nothing more than authoritarian tactics. Joe McCarthy and Donald Trump are proud of you

The issue is not about comparing two bad options but proposing a good one. The option supported by a large majority of Americans is medicare for all.

@17 They didn't even try to get better even though they held both chambers of congress for 2 years

Anyway, it doesn't even address why they aren't campaigning on it when their own constituencies are overwhelmingly in favor

@10: it's a realistic attitude. shit happens. we have no idea if this crazy fuck was off his meds or it was his 1st break with reality. we probably won't ever find out, either.

some people don't find out they have cancer until it's stage 4. it's not the fault of society at large not adequately funding cancer care.

@17: not only Repukes obstructing, but half-remembered Democratic Senators Baucus and Lieberman. "politics is the art of the possible" or something.

12, Mental health is a broad net and mental health crises can manifest in any number of ways. I can only assume the authorities who responded, in their professional capacity, determined this guy was having an episode and would not hesitate to charge him with more serious crimes if they had the reason to. I’m sure it was terrifying for everyone but if he is genuinely struggling with untreated mental illness, the best outcome for everyone is to get him the care and treatment he needs rather than charging him as a terrorist. It’s unfortunate that people need to act out to get the help they need but these are the limitations of a system that does not guarantee health care for everyone.

Citizens
Fucking
United

aka

the
Art of
the Steal.

@21 Politics is indeed the art of the possible but the possible is also determined by your negotiating position. Obama started negotiating from the compromise solution rather than the ideal one.

Perhaps the DNC should consider supporting candidates in agreement with its base rather than supporting conservatives against progressives.

Nice to see our resident full-time right-wing influencers averagebob and thirteen12 running interference from the left flank while their guy Donald Trump goes about seeing if he can singlehandedly dismantle the Constitution.

Apparently Medicare for All is the new talking point that's been conveyed by their masters which they can use as a cudgel against liberals and progressives.

@9, As a group, the mentally ill engage in less violent crime than the general population. They are more likely to be victims of homicidal violence than perpetrators.

https://www.columbiapsychiatry.org/news/mass-shootings-and-mental-illness

@24, The Democratic Party shrunk their base in 2024. They are losing the working class, as the Democrat persuasively argues.

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/2025/01/23/the_left_isnt_dead_yet_but_its_getting_there_639681.html

@25: I must say, you're in some kind of strange bubble on the spectrum to consider averagebob and thirteen12 as right-wing influencers.

@26 Yep, more the typical left-wing ideologue. They're certainly useful to the right, but not of the right themselves.

tho few are Susceptible
to Wormtongue's twisted
reasonings & justifications

@28, on-the-loose
looneybinders're
just as Free to
comment
@tS as
Any
one

@25, @29: These commenters in particular spent months telling us about “Genocide Joe,” and how he was bad. Now they’re saying Trump is worse? Or not? Either way, why did they not consider this before election?

@10 the difference is that cancer patients are actively seeking treatment and want to get better. The people we see doing these things usually are off their meds or just haven't accepted help due to unwillingness or inability to make rational decisions. So until you are ready to discuss involuntary treatment this sort of thing will continue to happen whether you "fully fund" mental health or not.

Universal Health Care is a winning campaign issue until you start talking to people about paying for it. No one wants to move to the 30%-40% tax rates it will take to make that happen.

Sorry, ^^^ was for @28. Typo.

Phoebe in Wallingford @28: "@25: I must say, you're in some kind of strange bubble on the spectrum to consider averagebob and thirteen12 as right-wing influencers."

So said the right-wing dude who has been presenting himself as "Phoebe" in "Wallingford" for however many years and who has suddenly been breaking character since the 2024 campaign. But I guess our resident sock puppet Phoebe here would be the first persona to stand up to defend the privilege of anonymous commenters to create suspicious personas by which they can bombard us with disinformation.

I guess this should be a warning to us. If we stand up to the flood of disinformation on these online forums, we need to be prepared to get gaslit. And that's the traditional meaning of the term gaslighting involving being told repeatedly that we must be crazy.

And one wonders why I say it would probably be for the civic good to shut down this forum.

@32 regular people (not millionaires) don't need to worry about raising the uppermost marginal tax rates. And M4A can be funded in such a way that also saves both individuals and employers money

https://www.sanders.senate.gov/wp-content/uploads/options-to-finance-medicare-for-all.pdf

@34 "And one wonders why I say it would probably be for the civic good to shut down this forum."

I'm sure your boss, if you actually have one, would appreciate the dramatic spike in your productivity

@31 Don't start spewing lies again. I always said that Trump was worse, which is the reason I said multiple times that people should vote for Harris in swing states. I also said that Biden enabling genocide would depress the vote, especially among youth and POC, and I was right according to the data. I also said that Harris tacking to the right (health care, fracking, Gaza) would play against her. You claimed at the time that none of it was true and now you say that progressives are responsible for the loss. You should be ashamed of yourself although it's clearly not an emotion you are capable of having.

@29 What is useful to the right is people like you regurgitating rightwing narratives on crime, the homeless and Gaza among other things.

@25 Progressives advocate for medicare for all, not DNC Democrats. You are tying yourself into a pretzel.

@37: The part you’re missing is your blatant, chronic, and hateful misuse of “genocide” is itself the problem. It’s not true (as I’ve forced poor kristo’ to admit, multiple times, by making him refuse to call 10/7 a genocide), and by branding the Democrats — and only the Democrats — as the party of genocide, you engaged in deceitful negative campaigning which (as intended) drove down turnout. (Sawant explicitly stated she was campaigning against Harris and the Democrats for their support of genocide.)

You’re the arsonist, complaining the Democrats didn’t properly fund the fire department, but no amount of your post-facto rationalizations will get you free of it.

@38 as if arguing about whether it is a genocide or merely a massive massacre of civilians changes anything. Your stupid logic won't fly.

"only the Democrats"

You are lying again. Also Biden and Blinken could have held Israelis accountable like freaking Reagan did but they enabled genocide instead.

" post-facto rationalizations "

No, no. Progressives called all these scenarios before they happened and you denied them.

thirteern12 @36: "I'm sure your boss, if you actually have one, would appreciate the dramatic spike in your productivity"

Yeah, that's exactly the problem for those of us who are just concerned citizens with day jobs. We simply cannot stand up against the tide of coordinated disinformation operatives.

@35 there is zero chance you can fund universal health care (assuming you want care at a level we have now) without raising marginal tax rates for all taxpayers. You can say tax the rich all you want but the reality is the effective tax rate is much higher across all income levels.

Who knows who is behind that avatar, @34, who takes themself way far too seriously.

@the Urinator:

"We simply
cannot stand up
against the tide of co-
ordinated disinformation operatives."

yep.
We're like
The FOX -- of Seattle!

and
you
poor
Victims
haven't got
the weeest of Chances*

may as well
toss in the
Towel.

*good thing
your Partners
fucking OWN
'our' Mass Media

The marginal tax rates for Sanders plan start increasing at $250K but Americans are ignorant about tax policy so it’s very easy to convince people they will pay more even if they won’t. I also remember the absolute panic over the ACA as a “government takeover of healthcare”, death panels and all that, when that law was entirely market-based. It’s just not possible to have a rational discussion about this or any serious issue in this shithole country so we all end up paying more for worse coverage. We’ll be lucky if we have Medicare for anyone when this administration is done pillaging the public coffers.

@41 tell me you didn't bother to read the document I linked without telling me

@44: You might want to read such plans with great skepticism. Highly skilled labor, which is what we mean by “healthcare,” is a very expensive commodity. All the way back in the ‘90s, I attended a 7th Congressional District “town hall” meeting, in which Rep. McDermott focused on single-payer health care. He told us of one question he persistently heard from his legislative counterparts in other countries: “How do you avoid paying for it?” Financing their countries’ national health services was one of their major ongoing headaches.

Single-payer (for which I voted, repeatedly, back then, and hopefully will again) would itself represent a big step forward, but paying for it would cost a lot of money. Health care will still be rationed, but by public bureaucrats instead of healthcare CEOs. (The former, at least, cost far less.)

@24 when Lieberman blocked a public option in Obamacare, he got primaried by a progressive D and lost, then he just ran as an I in the general, and won. It is nice that Sinema got replaced by an actual D, at least, although Manchin was only ever the best we could hope for from WV.

@44/45 look if you guys want to believe Bernie's plan is 100% fool proof I can't stop you but please don't pretend politician's put forth proposals all the time that drastically under estimate the full cost and scope of what its going to take. Instead of relying on a theoretical proposal why don't you just look at the effective tax rates of countries that have universal health care like Canada, the UK or Scandanavian countries. In each case you will find the effective tax rate people are paying is much greater than what we pay here in the US and in some cases (CA/UK) the level of care is arguably lower. That's reality. If you want to make the case for Universal Care then do it honestly and tell people they are going to pay and some are going to receive lower care than they do now but it should be better for the greater whole of the country in the long run.

Medicare already covers the most expensive insurance market. We would be eliminating the age restriction to include people below 65.

I’m under no illusion that it would be “cheap” but if you consider that people are already paying about $1000/month or more through their employer sponsored plan, that is money that could be part of your salary instead of a benefit that is largely invisible to you. If people instead received that money in their paycheck, we could raise taxes on middle class earners to fund universal healthcare and people’s take home income would be largely unaffected.

Just for the record I know this is unrealistic and there are many knock-on effects to consider I’m not touching on. We’ve been through this medicare for all / public option fight several times and it never ends well, and with the state of the media today I have even less faith in what’s possible than I did before. I am just pointing out that, in practical terms, we could have universal health care just like every other modern country on earth by redirecting the payments from employer-sponsored premiums to the federal income tax.

yes
neocons
Auserity programs
eliminated Billions in
Healthcare dollars, specially
in GB, who were recently sold
Amother bill of goods -- fucking Brexit

taking Political advice
unsolicited -- from a Republican
regardless of official affiliation or otherwise

Especially the Most Vocal
who's gotta Make Shit up
seems to Me to be like an
open invitation to political
fucking suicide. go, Hillary?

Caveat fucking
Lector, beeches.

@40: There is no practical method to distinguish a commenter genuinely expressing an opinion they arrived at through critical thinking, a commenter regurgitating an opinion that they absorbed through osmosis in their echo chamber of choice, a bot trained on posts from such an echo chamber, or a motivated troll expressing opinions based on some reaction they are trying to provoke or viewpoint they are seeking to discredit.

At least on forums such as this that afford relative anonymity, you will occasionally hear from viewpoints that fall outside the ever-narrowing range of acceptable opinions in your social media feed. But you may well be arguing with a LLM, so there's no point in letting it raise your blood pressure.

@49 the greatest trick the private insurance industry ever pulled was convincing people they weren't paying for it

@49 I think you are assuming everyone is fully insured right now and we all know that is not the case. There are a great many people who either don't have insurance or have inadequate coverage for their needs. I won't argue the moral implications of that but note that if given universal health care they most definitely would use it so the overall usage would go up. I don't think its a correct comparison to say you can divert what people are paying now from private to government and get the same care for more people. Payments will have to go up. I would also add that money is largely the biggest triage for care and if you remove that more people will pursue more types of care again adding cost to the system. I'm sure the truth is somewhere between Bernie's proposal and the dire predictions of those against universal care. I just think if we are going to be honest about it there is a larger probability that for middle and upper middle class people their costs will be greater. It's up to them to decide if they are willing to pay that for the overall greater good of society. Given our experience with homelessness I would say most people do not.

@39: "...whether it is a genocide or merely a massive massacre of civilians..."

First, it's entirely possible to commit genocide without killing a single human being. So "genocide" is not necessarily a synonym for "massacre." (So much for your supposed knowledge of the word, "genocide.")

Second, the IDF was not engaged in a "massacre of civilians," Hamas was attacking the IDF (and Israel, e.g. rockets fired from Rafah) from behind civilians and civilian infrastructure. Hamas' use of civilians in Gaza for human shields was documented long before Oct. 2023, (https://stratcomcoe.org/cuploads/pfiles/hamas_human_shields.pdf), and in case the point was somehow missed, Sinwar lectured his fellow Hamas commanders on how their strategy required a high civilian body count in Gaza (https://www.wsj.com/world/middle-east/gaza-chiefs-brutal-calculation-civilian-bloodshed-will-help-hamas-626720e7?mod=Searchresults_pos17&page=1). So anyone opposed to a high civilian body count in Gaza must've been out protesting Hamas, right?

"Also Biden and Blinken could have held Israelis accountable like freaking Reagan did but they enabled genocide instead."

Again with the admiration for right-wingers, and abuse of the word genocide. Horseshoe Theory meets circular reasoning.

"Progressives called all these scenarios before they happened and you denied them."

No, I said that first, "Gaza Isn't Driving Votes," and second, progressives should stop attacking Democrats because Trump would be worse on all issues. As you've repeatedly missed the combined message, it was, "focus on Gaza cannot win elections, but it can lose them," which is exactly what happened.

I’m not assuming everyone is fully insured; I am arguing for a universal health care plan after all. The uninsured rate is around 10%, and we could meet the increased demand by building more hospitals and creating more jobs for health care workers.

Also re: the uninsured, those of us who are fortunate enough to have coverage are paying more to carry them through because they still interface with the health care system and those costs get passed on to the rest of us. If everyone had a payer, the cost of care would go down for everyone and stabilize over time.

You also have to consider the cost of people not getting health care, or delaying health issues until they become unavoidable and more expensive. Health care markets with universal coverage are better at containing costs through preventative care instead of finding ways to deny payment.

In theory, congress could pass a law that mandated employers to add their insurance benefit to their employees’ salary, with some of that going towards a modest tax increase on the middle class and a progressive tax increase where top earners fill the gap. This is the wealthiest country on earth and it’s silly to argue we couldn’t afford to do this when every other western democracy has been doing so for decades. We have the financial means to do it, just not the political will.

@55 those are all fair points and you could be right. I just look at other countries that have UHC and they all have higher effective tax rates for the middle class so I think it’s fair to assume there will be some cost increases. Keep in mind as well much of the wealth you are discussing is based in equity so right now it can’t be taxed until it is liquidated. The pot of money is not that easy to get.

@53 "I don't think its a correct comparison to say you can divert what people are paying now from private to government and get the same care for more people."

It's not a direct comparison, but also in ways that would represent savings. Administration costs would go down without a jumble of insurers all with different coding and processes. Shareholder profits and C suite salaries would be removed as a consideration. The government could conceivably negotiate better prices for prescription drugs for a universal pool. And like 55 noted more people having routine primary care visits could head off dramatic costs from ER visits and catching problems late in the game.

The US spends significantly more on healthcare than do other countries. Anyone for whom cost is the major concern should be most against the status quo.

@54 You have already commented the exact same nonsensical drivel dozens of time and it's not anymore accurate today than the first time. You suck.

On the healthcare dialog, I think we all agree things would be better under single-payer (with the usual caveats about the ability of humans to fail, especially in politics), the question is how much better, and at what cost. As @57 noted, just eliminating multiple redundant for-profit bureaucracies would save a chunk of change right there. Using the government's power to drive down drug prices could be another plus (again with the caveats), but ultimately health care will still be rationed. Single-payer would be an improvement, but nothing will be a panacea.

And now we're getting a big lesson in the hazards of government-run anything, and it's a lesson directly relatable to medical care:

"‘Never seen anything like this’: Trump’s team halts NIH meetings and travel
In an unprecedented move, research-grant reviews have been suspended indefinitely at the world’s largest public funder of biomedical research."

(https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-025-00231-y)

Carnage
takes a
Pause:

Hamas Releases
Four Israeli
Soldiers

Israel’s military said the four hostages, all female soldiers, were being brought back to Israel from Gaza. Israel is now expected to release around 200 Palestinian prisoners.

oodles:
https://www.nytimes.com/live/2025/01/25/world/israel-hamas-hostages-cease-fire

and in Other news
this from the Daily Kos:

Musk's Trans Daughter
Has Final Word over
his Fascist Salute

Found this on the Indy 100* where Elon’s estranged daughter responds to the ‘controversy’ surrounding her father’s hand gestures during the indoor Inaugural festivities earlier this week:

Vivian Wilson - who is a trans woman and legally changed her name when she turned 18 in 2022 to reflect her gender identity and to stop being associated with her father - made comments which appeared to hint at the controversy, but did not [name] Musk outright.

Taking to Instagram’s Threads platform, she wrote: "I'm just gonna say let's call a spade a f**ing spade. Especially if there were two spades done in succession based on the reaction of the first spade."

The 21-year-old also seemingly fired back at those defending Musk using the excuse that he has "autism" for him doing the one-armed gesture.

“I don’t know why ya’ll are reacting with such vigor, I’m clearly only talking about card suits,” Wilson said.

“I mean I have ADHD and this was CLEARLY just an accident that people happened to interpret to mean something other than just card suits. After all, there’s no proof I’m not just talking about card suits,” she joked. “People assuming that I’m not just talking about card suits just goes to show how dishonest people/the media can be.”

On a final note, Wilson concluded: “For those who can read between the lines, do y’all understand how f***ing easy this is to do?

Plausible deniability honey. Just saying.”

by Irontortoise -- from the DK Community (This content is not subject to review by Daily Kos staff prior to publication.)
Friday, January 24, 2025

oodles:
https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2025/1/24/2299009/-Musk-s-Trans-Daughter-Has-Final-Word-over-his-Fascist-Salute

*the Indy 100:
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technology/elon-musk-s-estranged-daughter-responds-to-nazi-salute-accusations-with-scathing-post/ar-AA1xNKBb

@61 - Elon trolls, his kid should know that by now.

@58: Glad to read another one of your classy, well-reasoned comments here. (No doubt kristo' was impressed with your display of verbal skills.)

For my part, I stand by NATO's reporting on Hamas, The Wall Street Journal's reporting on Sinwar, and the definition of "genocide" in the Genocide Convention. You're free to argue with any of those anytime you like.

I also re-affirm my point, that we should measure concern for civilians in Gaza by the amount of criticism directed at Hamas for using those civilians as human shields. (In addition to clarifying the morality, it cuts out a lot of useless noise.)

@54 Why are you suddenly talking about the case of genocide when nobody dies when it's obviously not what happened in Gaza? Did I say 'massacre' and 'genocide' were the exact same thing? Why are you always trying to score cheap points by distorting and lying about what others say? and then when called on it you move on as if nothing happened. As I pointed out you are trying to argue about whether it's genocide to distract from the fact that 60,000 Palestinians were massacred via numerous war crimes. The fact that it is genocidal in intent makes these acts even more reprehensible but whether Biden and Blinken enabled genocide or numerous war crimes does not make any of it more acceptable. Stupid twerp!

Why are you again lying about who started being violent in 2023 by claiming that everything started on Oct 7? You have been provided with evidence numerous times that the IDF killed several hundred Palestinians in 2023 BEFORE Oct 7 and of course like the good propagandist you are, you have NEVER even acknowledged it and I certainly don't expect you to acknowledge it today:

"Even before Hamas’ attack on October 7, Israeli forces had already killed 205 Palestinians in the West Bank this year, while settlers were responsible for nine more killings. Of these deaths, 52 occurred in Jenin alone, including in its refugee camp, where Palestinians who’ve searched for safety amid conflict and violence over the years live.

On June 19 [2023], Israeli forces began conducting air strikes in the West Bank—something that had not occurred since the Second Intifada in the early 2000s. Far from being an isolated event, these attacks have become more frequent. In July [2023], Israeli fighter jets dropped bombs and drone strikes on the densely populated Jenin refugee camp during a 48-hour military operation. The violence has only escalated since."

https://www.doctorswithoutborders.org/latest/palestinians-west-bank-2023-was-deadliest-year-record

Furthermore, who started the violence in 2023 is completely irrelevant to the fact that Israel starved and bombed over 2,000,000 people in Gaza in violation of international law since Oct 7. Whether Hamas wanted a blood bath to trap Israel is also completely irrelevant to the fact that Israeli forces massacred 10,000's of civilians most of whom are children and women. Your "Hamas made us do it" defense of unspeakable Israeli actions is completely pathetic.

Why are you AGAIN lying by omission about Israel routinely using Palestinian human shields for decades when bringing up Hamas using human shields?
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2024-08-13/ty-article-magazine/.premium/idf-uses-gazan-civilians-as-human-shields-to-inspect-potentially-booby-trapped-tunnels/00000191-4c84-d7fd-a7f5-7db6b99e0000

As for the rest of your comment, it's just plain stupid so I won't further waste anybody's time.

@63 Are you denying that you have written these exact same comments dozens of times over the past year? Why are you trying to flood these comment pages with Israeli talking points and then claim victory when we acknowledge there is little point in answering blow by blow a sociopath who'll keep spewing the same crapola over and over and over again?

@64: lol, there’s no “genocide,” go breathe into a bag already. 😂 If Palestinians don’t enjoy getting bombed by Israel, they could always try not doing terrorism against Israel. 🤣

Plenty of other Arabs who used to get bombed by Israel decided to stop doing terrorism against Israel and as a result no longer get bombed by Israel. It’s really pretty simple. 😉

@63 "classy"

You lie and distort other people comments almost systematically while regurgitating the exact same propaganda ad infinitum and you think people people aren't classy because they tell you that you suck?

@66 How was the lurking? I knew you'd be around soon to do your job.

Your comment reads like a defense of settler colonialism, apartheid, ethnic cleansing, war crimes, crimes against humanity and genocide.

Cease fire hold. More hostages released from both sides.

UN rights office raises alarm over escalating violence in occupied West Bank

The UN human rights office, OHCHR, on Friday expressed grave concerns over escalating violence in the Jenin area of the occupied West Bank, condemning the use of “unlawful lethal force” by Israeli security forces.

OHCHR spokesperson Thameen Al-Kheetan added that the Israeli military operation in and around the Jenin refugee camp had involved “disproportionate” use of force, including airstrikes and shootings that reportedly targeted unarmed residents.

“The deadly Israeli operations in recent days raise serious concerns about unnecessary or disproportionate use of force, including methods and means developed for war fighting, in violation of international human rights law, norms and standards applicable to law enforcement operations.”

OHCHR verified that at least 12 Palestinians – most reportedly unarmed – have been killed since Tuesday and a further 40 injured. Those injured include a doctor and two nurses, according to the Palestinian Red Crescent.

Mr. Al-Kheetan reiterated that Israel, as the occupying power, has a responsibility under international law to protect civilians living under occupation.

He stressed the need for investigations into alleged unlawful killings, warning that a lack of accountability risks perpetuating violence.

“All killings in a law enforcement context must be thoroughly and independently investigated and those responsible for unlawful killings must be held to account,” he said.

“By persistently failing, over the years, to hold accountable members of its security forces responsible for unlawful killings, Israel is not only violating its obligations under international law, but risks encouraging the recurrence of such killings,” he warned.

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/west-bank-violence-imperils-gaza-ceasefire-un-rights-office-warns-2025-01-24/

@68: lol, heli-skiing in BC, not lurking not the internet! This time of year, thumpus is often hard to find! 🚁🚁🚁⛷️⛷️⛷️😎

“settler colonialism, apartheid, ethnic cleansing, war crimes, crimes against humanity and genocide”

That’s a tasty progressive word salad, but aren’t you also supposed to add: white supremacy, genocide, othering, blackface, cultural appropriation, and micro-aggressions? 😂😂😂

@71 Yoyoing with helo assist is hardly cool during climate breakdown. Now, if you actually climbed up on your own 2 feet I might be impressed depending on the vertical involved.

You are certainly quick to reply when invoked for not lurking (twice now since your 'leave of absence') ....

paid
AIPAC
pricks?

if not
they're
giving away
massive propaganda

for totally
Free! the Wormtonuge's
bill for this site alone's gotta be
in the hundreds of $K. making a Killing's

a hellova
way to go.

'Genocide'?

What
Fucking
GENOCIDE

@72: lol, now I’m also guilty of breaking down the climate! 😂😂😂 Never fear, I mostly drive an e-tron RS which more than offsets my carbon for the skiing!

@70, So when will the U.N. substantiate its its allegations in court? They have yet to file a case.

When will the U.N. deploy their army to end what they are alleging.

@64: "Did I say 'massacre' and 'genocide' were the exact same thing?"

Well, @39, you wrote, "...as if arguing about whether it is a genocide or merely a massive massacre of civilians changes anything." That seems to imply no difference worthy of consideration. In fact, they can be two completely different things, as I then noted per the actual definition of genocide.

"As I pointed out you are trying to argue about whether it's genocide to distract from the fact that 60,000 Palestinians were massacred via numerous war crimes."

By Hamas, yes. Hence my reference, wherein NATO documented Hamas' long-standing policy of using the civilians in Gaza for human shields -- a massive war crime.

"The fact that it is genocidal in intent..."

Is something which has not been demonstrated in any court, and for which you have provided absolutely no evidence of any kind whatsoever.

"Why are you again lying about who started being violent in 2023 by claiming that everything started on Oct 7?"

As I've noted this armed conflict began in the late 1940's, it would seem you have a rather large problem with validating that statement.

"You have been provided with evidence numerous times that the IDF killed several hundred Palestinians in 2023 BEFORE Oct 7..."

Unless you can show this was the impetus for Hamas' genocidal attack on 10/7, I fail to see the relev-

"Furthermore, who started the violence in 2023 is completely irrelevant..."

Glad to see we agree on something!

'"Hamas made us do it" defense ...'

Look, this isn't hard. Hamas stormed into Israel, killed Jews for being Jews on land the killers had vowed to cleanse of Jews (that's genocide, by the way, should you ever show the slightest curiosity as to what genocide actually entails), and kidnapped hundreds of Israeli citizens, dragging them into Gaza -- some of whom still remain hostages in Gaza to this day. That prompted an armed Israeli response (as any sovereign country could do in similar circumstances) and then Hamas used civilians in Gaza as human shields, whilst Hamas continued to attack Israel. The result of all that has been, among other things, a very high death toll in Gaza -- a death toll the leader of Hamas wanted, as we know from The Wall Street Journal's reporting.

"Whether Hamas wanted a blood bath to trap Israel is also completely irrelevant to the fact that Israeli forces massacred 10,000's of civilians most of whom are children and women."

"Whether..." Wow. Just wow. Denial really is a way of life for you guys, isn't it?

(By the way, any idea of how many of those dead were Hamas' fighters?)

"Why are you AGAIN lying by omission about Israel routinely using Palestinian human shields for decades when bringing up Hamas using human shields?"

AGAIN (see, I can use ALL CAPS, too!), Israeli use of human shields was in the NATO report I cited, along with the note the Israeli Supreme Court told the IDF to stop the practice. It should be prosecuted wherever and whenever it is done.

So, the IDF uses human shields in contravention of Israeli law, whilst Hamas has a blanket policy of using human shields -- and wanted more civilian deaths. And you equate these two cases-- not a good look, although you can't be convinced on that point either, apparently.

@65: Wow. Just wow. The self-awareness is not strong in this one!

@76: That’s a pretty comprehensive takedown of AverageBob, ha ha!

I would only add that the underlying reason why AverageBob is so wrong about so many things related to Israel is that AverageBob is affronted by the notions of Jewish nationhood and Jewish sovereignty. All of AverageBob’s subsequent errors of understanding flow from this original, fundamental prejudice! 😄

@76 "[genocide and massacre] can be two completely different things"

They can be but not in Gaza which is what we are talking about. The only difference between murderous genocide and massacre in Gaza is intent. You mention the no victim genocide to divert attention from the point that Biden enabled a mass massacre of civilians, which is essentially as reprehensible as enabling a genocide and to falsely claim that I do not know what is a genocide. Typical garbage from you.

"[60,000 Palestinians were massacred via numerous war crimes] By Hamas, yes"

No, absolutely not. The Israeli government had the choice to pursue a police action to round up the perps and instead they chose to commit a massacre (and genocide) via bombing and starving. Israel committed the massacre.

"for which [genocide] you have provided absolutely no evidence of any kind whatsoever."

and you're back to lying, again. The murderous rhetoric of Israeli leaders calling for collective punishment of all Palestinians and the cutting off of life sustaining supplies has been largely documented here, for example.

" Hamas stormed into Israel, killed Jews "

They did but NOTHING justifies Israel murdering 10,000's of innocent Palestinian civilians in response. Never again means never again for everyone, not just Jews. It's really unfortunate that you have to be told.

@77 Nope, averagebob is affronted by settler colonialism. apartheid, ethnic cleansing, war crimes, crimes against humanity and genocide. All things that you apparently think are no big deal when they happen to Palestinians, which suggests that you are a racist who doesn't acknowledge the fundamental rights of Palestinians because they get in your way.

didn't
nor Don't
wanna read
Wormtongue's
justifications and
rationalizations,* perhaps
he makes a Good case, but Still

"You lie
and distort
other people['s]
comments almost
systematically while
regurgitating the exact
same propaganda ad infinitum
and you think people people aren't
classy because they tell you that you suck?"

and

"Are you
denying that
you have written
these exact same com-
ments dozens of times over
the past year? Why are you trying
to flood these comment pages with
Israeli talking points and then claim victory
when we acknowledge there is little point in
answering blow by blow a sociopath who'll keep
spewing the same crapola over and over and over again?"

--@ab
aka (to
pissonya)
"our fascist plant"

*the
bottomless
pit aka The Cesspool:
its toxic Fumes'll getchya if
its circular Manifestations cannot

@79: Cute, but you only prove my point with these imaginary calumnies, ha ha!

“Universal Health Care is a winning campaign issue until you start talking to people about paying for it. No one wants to move to the 30%-40% tax rates it will take to make that happen."

Bingo. Add to that the far lower incomes in, say, Europe and yep, you're living the European nightmare.

Signed,

European Refugee in America

Genocide? Then why would Israel agree to a ceasefire and leave the job far from finished?

@78, 79

THANK
YOU
ab!

pushing
back against
AIPAC, their Minions
and a Genocide by any other name

is the Apex
of Nobility.

fucking
Kudos.

@83 -- the ceasefire's
soon to be a distant mem-
ory in the ongoing Landgrab
cum Massacre cum OUR TAX
DOLLAR$ AT WORK/ KEEP bibi
the Fuck outta Prison quagmire

and
bibi and
Thedonolde're
not Stopping there

@85: “the ceasefire's soon to be a distant memory in the ongoing Landgrab.”

Don’t be too sure of that. Hamas is already playing games with the hostage releases, exactly as I predicted they would when the ceasefire was announced. They are unilaterally changing which hostages they release or keep, in contravention of the ceasefire. Israel would be fully within its rights to start shooting again but so far has not. I suspect the ceasefire will prove a fairly durable arrangement, at least until Hamas is able to re-arm, which won’t take but a few years. Then it’ll be back to another “glorious victory” for Palestine, ha ha ha!

let's
see: bibi
goes to Jail
OR the Genocide
continues (unless, of
Course, you prefer Massacre)?

boy~
Tough
question.

oh, right --

but
HAMAS.

40-1 the Death Count is
what're we Shooting
[pardonthepun] for

50-1
100-1?
100,000,000

to one.

armageddon?

I cannot See
Thedonolde putting
up with it for much longer

how f
Fugly is
it gonna Get?

@87: I’m a little surprised to hear Kristofarian acknowledge the existence of Hamas. Kristo, are you sure Hamas isn’t just another fabrication of the worldwide AIPAC space-lasers conspiracy? 😂😂😂

@86
so Which?

let's
see: bibi
goes to Jail
OR the Genocide
continues (unless, of
Course, you prefer Massacre)?

&
don't
wake up
Wormtongue

you're
a Big Boy
now.

@85:

'and
bibi and
Thedonolde're
not Stopping there'

kristofarian on January 25, 2025 at 5:53 PM :

as goes
AIPAC so goes
trumpftopia, inc

formerly
US

from Caitlin’s Newsletter:

They’ve ar-
rested another pro-
Palestinian journalist,
this time in Switzerland.

The Electronic Intifada’s executive director Ali Abunimah has reportedly been detained by Swiss police in Zurich, after having been interrogated for an hour and released the previous day when entering the country.

Abunimah, who is Palestinian-American, has played a leading role in exposing and critiquing the apartheid abuses of Israel for many years.

In October of last year, Electronic Intifada’s associate editor Asa Winstanley saw his home raided by British “counterterrorism” police in response to his social media posts about Israel’s western-backed abuses in the middle east. Multiple electronic devices were seized. No charges were ever filed.

https://x.com/AsaWinstanley/status/1883244682836419064

In the United States speech rights have been getting stomped out in different ways since October 2023, ranging from violent police crackdowns on college campus demonstrations against Israel’s genocidal atrocities in Gaza to banning TikTok in order to suppress pro-Palestinian speech.

Silicon Valley tech platforms which are intimately intertwined with the US government have been censoring speech that is critical of Israel with increasing aggression, and President Trump has just signed an executive order which appears to be geared toward deporting visitors to the United States who participate in pro-Palestinian activism.

Here in Australia, government leaders from both parties pushed hard for a ban on people protesting this past October 7, and police investigated protesters for waving Hezbollah flags at a demonstration in Melbourne under a new law banning the public display of symbols of designated “terrorist” groups.

Zionists have been using the Australian courts to bully prominent journalist Mary Kostakidis on accusations of unlawful hate speech for sharing video footage of the now-deceased Hezbollah leader Hassan Nasrallah.

Suppression of dissident speech is becoming more and more overt throughout the west as the empire becomes more violent and tyrannical in its efforts to suppress revolutionary sentiments at home and the emergence of a multipolar world abroad.

The facade of an enlightened society where ideas and information are freely exchanged for the enrichment of liberal democracy has been rapidly giving way to iron-fisted authoritarianism as our historically unprecedented democratization of information allows ordinary people to cast a critical eye on their rulers in ways they never used to be able to.

The world’s first live-streamed genocide has seen the western empire scramble into panic mode as raw video footage circulating on social media opened people’s eyes in ways no propaganda spinmeister could possibly reframe.

That’s why we are seeing police forces increasingly deployed against journalists and activists whose sole crime consists of voicing wrongthink about the empire and its actions.

The empire managers need to be cautious about how rapidly they reveal to the public that we do not live in a free society, however.

The best way to keep us all mindlessly marching along to the beat of this capitalist dystopia is to deceive us into thinking that we are free.

The more they expose their hand, the more they risk awakening a real revolutionary response to their tyranny by showing everyone how locked down our society really is.

It will be interesting to see how this tightrope walk plays out. It seems like we’re essentially watching a race between the awakening of human consciousness to reality on one side, and the efforts of our rulers to shore up total control of this civilization via AI and automated security systems on the other.

We either awaken from our propaganda-induced coma in sufficient numbers to rise up and force the creation of a healthy world, or we get trapped in the status quo by empire managers armed with drone swarms, militarized robots, and total control of our information and financial systems until we are annihilated by ecocidal capitalism or omnicidal nuclear brinkmanship.

Either way, the world is getting more and more dangerous for truth-tellers everywhere. We should probably do something about that before it’s too late.

--by Caitlin Johnstone; 1/25/25

oodles:
https://www.caitlinjohnst.one/p/another-journalist-arrested-in-another

okay
wormmy's
little helper

reduce that to
a few quips &
Seal the Deal
with a smiley
face or two

and I know
wormmy asked
you to wake him tf Up

should CaitlinJ happen
to show, but This
time let's let the
sleeping dogs
Lie. just You
& I! sounds
kinda Po-
etic, do-
nut?

Oooh!
this, just in:

Trump
Suggests
Moving Palestinian
Refugees to Jordan and Egypt

nyTimes.org

more Troublesome
than a Neutron
Bomb but Lots
less Blowback.

Landgrab!
OUR tax
$$$ !!!

so
do
We
the Peeps
all get Shares?

@78: "... Biden enabled a mass massacre of civilians..."

Again with the Horseshoe Theory hatred of the Democrats. Biden did, in fact, stop at least one shipment of arms to Israel; the pro-Palestinian side (you know, the one that can't actually drive any votes?) then demanded an embargo, which no American president can do. You really need to educate yourself on the limits of American power, especially when it comes to Israel.

"The Israeli government had the choice to pursue a police action to round up the perps..."

And how would they have accomplished that, exactly? Hamas is the government of Gaza. Go ahead, tell us your silly little fantasy, detailing exactly how this would have worked in practice.

"The murderous rhetoric of Israeli leaders..."

Still quoting what the Finance Minister said, back in July or whenever? Good luck with that.

And, again, you simply can't face the reality of Hamas' blanket policy for use of human shields, and wanting a high death toll for a result. You give Hamas no agency on those points, despite plenty of documentation from reliable sources (NATO and The Wall Street Journal) that Hamas used that method, with that goal. I'm not going to stop quoting those documents and sources, no matter how many names you call me.

Hamas committed genocide in Israel on 10/7, full stop. That would not justify Israel responding in kind, but that's not what happened. You can get there only by ignoring Hamas' roles in the conflict, and so that you do.

@88: "I'm a little surprised to hear Kristofarian acknowledge the existence of Hamas."

You're reading too much into his verbal dribblings. "but HAMAS" is him claiming the rest of us have fabricated all of Hamas' post-10/7 actions, purely to provide an excuse for Israel to kill civilians in Gaza.

@92: “"but HAMAS" is him claiming the rest of us have fabricated all of Hamas' post-10/7 actions”

lol, you’re right, I was giving him more credit than he deserves! 🤣

Progressives, they simultaneously celebrate Palestinian terrorism and deny that it exists! 😂

Israel Blocks Gazans From North,
Accusing Hamas of Cease-Fire Breach

Some troops had been expected to withdraw to allow hundreds of thousands of displaced Gazans to go home. But the military said the hostage exchange before that step had not gone as agreed.

https://www.nytimes.com/2025/01/26/world/middleeast/israel-gaza-cease-fire.html

seattle's
AIPAC rep
and his finger-
puppet, lecturing
humanity on the Good
a Genocide can deliver tho
Not to its Victims, ignoring the

Existential Threat to Palestine,
America, the Planet's Biosphere
& Not to Mention its Occupants:

"We either awaken
from our propaganda-
induced coma in sufficient
numbers to rise up and force
the creation of a healthy world,

or

we get
trapped in
the status quo
by empire managers
armed with drone swarms,
militarized robots, and total control

of
our
information
and financial systems
until we are annihilated by
ecocidal capitalism or omnicidal nuclear brinkmanship."

well-put
Caitlin.
thnx!

"It will be interesting to see how this tightrope walk plays out. It seems like we’re essentially watching a race between the awakening of human consciousness to reality on one side, and the efforts of our rulers to shore up total control of this civilization via AI and automated security systems on the other."

--Caitlin Johnstone

Live Updates:
Violence as Deadline Passes
for Israeli Troop Withdrawal in Lebanon

Israeli forces
killed at least 15 people
and injured dozens more in
the country’s south, Lebanese officials said.

https://www.nytimes.com/live/2025/01/26/world/lebanon-israel-hezbollah

ah, it's just Israel
"nothing" to
see here

just a little
War Crimes
as per Usual

ON
OUR
TAX DOLLARS

one nyt reader’s comment on
David French’s Opinion
piece in today’s nyt:

Us and Them Is All the Rage
Jan. 26, 2025

https://www.nytimes.com/2025/01/26/opinion/trump-maga-schmitt.html

This excellent essay provides an explanation to one of the biggest mysteries of modern politics. How can millions of people who claim to be devout followers of Jesus Christ engage in such brutal and antagonistic behavior?

How can so many easily reject the major tenets of their faith and be so hateful and unforgiving and intolerant? How can so many covet wealth over the basic security of the poor and downtrodden? How are these behaviors virtuous?

As explained by Mr. French, these tenets of virtue have been replaced by a new definition of virtue, political virtue. To them, virtue is now based on a combative stance of opposing an enemy. Virtue is not what you do to help, but what you do to engage in battle.

I cite as an example the recent statements of Speaker Mike Johnson regarding the California wildfires.

Johnson claims to be a devout Christian and says he lets the Bible guide his actions and decisions. He just said that the fires were the result of bad political decisions, and he has legislation that will correct them.

In other words, it wasn't a 10 month drought and hurricane level winds, it was bad forest management resulting from bad politics. It was their fault.

To make matters worse, he was horribly smug about it. His smugness was undoubtedly drivin by his devotion. It was mean and vindictive victim blaming. This is political virtue in action.

--Bruce Rozenblit; Kansas City, MO

oodles More
https://www.nytimes.com/2025/01/26/opinion/trump-maga-schmitt.html#commentsContainer

smugness:
it’s a Virtue!
amiright🛴🔨?

one more nyt reader’s comment on
David French’s essay, above:

I think this is an incredibly important statement:

“Rather than resist it, we want to find some way to make it right, often simply to preserve our self-conception that we are moral and decent people.”

It explains why many people, when faced with their own terrible behaviour, don’t just deny it - they actually double down and keep repeating it in worse and more harmful ways.

The closer the threat of accountability gets, the more heinous the behaviour becomes. The fact that it’s harming other people (or even themselves) doesn’t matter, as long as they get to maintain the illusion of their own self-perception.

I’ve ended several relationships with people like that, including my own family members, because it is a poison that destroys everything in its path.

--AreYouSureAboutTh; Canada