Julia Sweeney, who starred on Saturday Night Live from 1990 to 1994 and since then has created brainy, brilliant one-woman shows about topics like surviving cancer and becoming an atheist, is coming to Seattle on February 1 with her latest comedy monologue, Julia Sweeney: Older & Wider.
She creates shows by workshopping new material in very small theaters, to see what works and what doesnāt. The earliest experiments for Older & Wider took place at Second City in Chicago, and while she was there, another comedian, Abby McEnany, was workshopping a one-woman show of her own called Work in Progress, which just so happened to be about how her life was ruined byā¦ Julia Sweeney. In college, Abby was endlessly teased and harassed for looking like Sweeneyās most well-known SNL character, the ambiguously gendered Pat.
āWe met, we loved each other, and it was just so funny and weird that we were both there at Second City at the same time,ā Sweeney said in an interview the other day. McEnanyās friend Tim Mason, a director, tossed out the idea filming a few vignettes from Work in Progress, Sweeney agreed to be in them, and Mason turned that material into a TV pilot, which they submitted to Sundance. āBecause Sundance now has TV, because TV is where everything is happening,ā Sweeney explained. āThey take twelve pilots, Sundance does, and Work in Progress got to be one.ā Sweeney flew to Sundance a year ago, āpounded the pavement like crazy for this show, and Showtime bought it! So I became an executive producer, but I donāt write it. Iām just in four episodes.ā In one of them, "Weird Al" Yankovic plays her husband.
Over the course of an interview that was supposed to take 20 minutes but lasted two glorious hours, we talked about comedy, Pat, the Democratic primary, Al Franken, Sweeneyās role on Shrill, the future of the planet, and her years as a University of Washington student 40 years ago. The Q&A below has been edited and condensed. Tickets for Julia Sweeney: Older & Wider are still available.
After being off television for years, you are everywhere suddenlyāon Work in Progress, on Shrill. How does it feel?
Part of me feels like Iām this flowerāyou know how flowers, just before they die, they have this last bloom? OK, thatās how I feel like I am. Like, I just had this amazing yearāIām going YEEEEAHHHH!! [She reaches out her arms like sheās growing.] And then Iām just going to go: GRRUGHGHGH. [She scrunches her face and wilts as if sheās dying.] So I had this gangbusters year, but I have no idea what the future holds.
I was just catching up on Work in Progress on Hulu. Itās so good.
Isnāt it good? That was like a gift that walked into my life. A complete gift to me. I think Abby is one of the funniest people on the planet. I love the story. Itās a perfect way to talk about Pat. Itās really funny what happens with me in the season. And the whole idea of me playing kind of a cartoon character of myself is hilarious.
In the first episode, Abby sees you in a bar, and whispers to her date that Pat ruined her life, and then thereās a confrontation. Do people come up and confront you about Pat a lot?
No. Because I guess they donāt come up. And back when I was playing Pat, I got a lot of letters from people who looked like Pat, who were happy that I was doing Pat. The androgynous icons of the time were David Bowie or kd lang, and I thought, you know, thatās not regular androgyny. Regular androgyny is people who have five kids and a minivan. Thatās the true androgyny of America. Pat was heterosexual, and a man or a woman, but just didnāt present one way or the other. And because Pat was so annoying and self-obsessed, Pat wasnāt aware that people were uncomfortable. That was my idea. And we kept to that. But of course there is this whole other group of people, like Abby is one, who feel like Pat was this derogatory thing.
Is there anything about Pat that you regret?
You know, I was thinking: If Pat was cool and androgynous, no one would care about it. What theyāre upset about is that Pat is unattractive. Patās overweight, and Pat drools, and Patās annoying. But androgynous people run the gamut, like everybody does, and some are weird and drool and are fat, and some are thin and beautiful and blah blah blah. So what youāre upset about is that Patās unattractive. And that makes me mad at people who are saying that Iām being derogatory towards a group of people that are oppressed, that Iām punching down. I didnāt think of it that way. But I do feel bad that Pat was used to make people feel bad. Abby did make me understand that. What happens in Work in Progress is real. She told me how terrible it was to be called Pat. And I was sad that she had to go through that.
If you were creating that character today, would you do anything differently?
If I had been smarter I would have made Pat more of an enigma and a blank, and concentrated more on everyoneās uncomfortableness. But because it was fun to me to play an annoying character, I made Pat really gross and annoying. Actually I think now there was a better way to do it. I was watching a Charlie Chaplin movie with my daughter, I forget which one it was, but I was like: āOh, if Pat had been more like this Charlie Chaplin character, kind of silent, and it was barely about Pat, Pat didnāt even have any lines, it was just everyone confused by Patāthatās what should have been done.ā So I regret that I didnāt have that foresight or insight or maturity.
What is it like being on Shrill?
Shrill is funny and lovely and important and I think the second season [which comes out today, January 24] is even better than the first. I love Aidy Bryant. And I adore Daniel Stern [who plays Sweeney's husband] and we always laugh our heads off. When I came home from one shoot, I said to my husband, āToday I smoked weed with Daniel Stern in bed.ā And my husband said, āSo youāre doing things with your TV husband in bed that youāve never done with me.ā
What can you tell me about Older & Wider?
I love this show so much. Itās my most mainstream show. Itās funny. In my other shows, itās like, āOh, Iām going to talk about religion,ā or āIām going to talk about cancer,ā or whatever. This oneās just: āIām just going to be funny!ā It was a relief to not be worried about a big topic, to just try to be funny. It is about launching a kid, and itās about my daughterās boyfriend who voted for Trump and we lost our minds over itā¦
Launching a kid?
Launching a kid, yeah.
Into space?
Yes. Into the world. You know, sending them out. So it does have sort of a theme. But mostly, if itās in the show itās because I got laughs on it. That was actually this huge relief. I thought, āGod I should have been doing this all along.ā When I moved back to LA recently, I thought, āIām going to come back to LA and show people I can be funny. Iām going to get a comedy special out of this. But itās going to be hard to be an actress.ā And then the opposite happened. I came to Hollywood, I couldnāt stop being cast as an actress, and no one was interested in my comedy special. Zero. I couldnāt get anyone from Netflix to come. I couldnāt get assistants to come. Well, no, I had a couple assistants to people at Netflix come, and they were like 22 years old, and their response was, basically, āSomebody thatās my grandmaās age is doing a show?ā
Hahahahaha.
So then I thought, āOkay, Iām making all this money as an actress now, Iām just going to film it myself.ā So thatās what Iām going to do, at the Fox Theater in Spokane, where I used to be an usher. This April, weāre going to film Older & Wider. But Iām excited to do it in Seattle first, because I have so many friends here, and Seattle is my place. Itās my hometown, in a way.
I just learned from Wikipedia today that you went to the University of Washington.
Oh my god, it was the greatest part of my life. My life began at the University of Washington.
It's snowing today. Did you ever slip in the snow at Red Square?
I didnāt do that, but Iāll tell you what did happen. I was student body vice president, and we had a day of awareness of disabled students, and in honor of the disabled students I said that I, as student body vice president, would go around to all my classes in a wheelchair. And then I lost control of my wheelchair in Red Square.
No!
And because it kind of slopes down toward the fountain, and I couldnāt stop it, I was going to burn my hands if I grabbed the wheels, I crashed the wheelchair and it hit the fountain and ejected me into the fountain.
What?! You're kidding.
No. It was terrible. No one saw it, thank god.
Do you think Harvey Weinstein really needs that stupid walker?
Oh I donāt know, but man, the whole idea that he canāt let it go. He canāt just say, āYeah, I had a good run.ā Read the Stoics, man! Nero tossed them out, they went to some island and had to learn to be farmers of grass, and they carried on! The whole idea that heās complaining and still wants to be in the industryājust incredible.
What do you make of what happened to your old SNL cast mate Al Franken?
I didnāt sleep for a month after that happened.
Really?
Because it was so wrong! It was so wrong. Every single thing that happened was so wrong. I could see how there was a madness of crowds. They could get whipped up on evidence that really was no evidence. I wouldnāt say that Iām a close friend of his, but I did work with him very closely for four-and-a-half years. Heās the most wonderful person, of all the people who were at SNL, the most feminist. The whole idea that he was brought down over those things, when I know what kind of person he is, is such an outrage to me. I am still outraged about it. So I decided I wanted to do a show about it. I just finished another twelve workshops of a show about it.
You did?
But Iāve really struggled about how to do it. I havenāt been able to make that show work yet. I became, like, the Perry Mason of Al Franken. I literally had six-by-nine cards on my bulletin board of every allegation and I knew every single thing. I did workshops that were 90 minutes of me going through each allegation, where people were getting up and leaving. Ten people in the audience to start, and three people by the end. And I was going, āAllegation number six!ā And people were coming over to my house saying, āYou canāt do this show. Youāll never work again.ā
You went through each allegation?
Like, the picture of him with his hands hovering over the flak jacket of Leeann Tweeden. The joke is that sheās wearing a flak jacket so we know that he canāt feel her up because sheās wearing a half inch of Kevlar, and then heās looking in the camera with a dumb expression like Bluto from Animal House, but we the audience know that he doesnāt realize he canāt feel her up because sheās wearing armorāthatās what that picture is. And the whole thing of the butt-grabbing? Iām only a little bit of a celebrity, but when youāre at a fair, and thereās 18,000 people who want a picture with you, and everyone wants to show how intimate they are with you by having their arms across you? Youāre trying to go fast, and shit can happen. Thereās many times when Iāve been in photos with people and I go, āI donāt know where my hand is. I donāt know what itās touching.ā
Were you working on this show before the New Yorker story about him by Jane Mayer?
Yes. This was right when it all first happened. I started doing this show and then people were freaking out. I was getting cast on things and people at the shows I was getting cast on were going, āIād hate to lose you from the show for defending Al Franken.ā And then I talked to my husband and said, āWe have to look at our financesāwhat if I never worked again?ā So then I was all Joan-of-Arc-y and was like, āFuck it, Iāll never work again if it all comes down to this.ā But then I couldnāt make the show work. I thought, āIām not going to die on a hill of a boring show that no one even likes.ā
Are you an Elizabeth Warren fan?
Yes!
That makes me so happy.
Oh, I go insane for Elizabeth Warren. Iām crazy for Elizabeth Warren. Iām ready to get my heart broken, but I am doing what I can. Iāve gone to some of the meet-ups. I give monthly. I retweet everything I can, whatever that does. I wear my shirt around. I like Bernie too. I like her a lot better than I like Bernie, but if it needs to be some older white guy, can it please be Bernie and not Joe Biden?
I want a woman president.
I know it. Itās time! Itās so fucking time. And Hillary got three million more votes!
When you think about the future, what do you think about?
This is what I think. Weāre in for a fucking shit show on climate. Iāve read Jared Diamondās Collapse that looks at every society thatās had major climate challenges and how theyāve dealt with it one way or the other, and some have survived it and some havenāt. Weāre not going to survive it. Itās too big and itās too many people on the planet. What I think is going to happen is the climate, either in our lifetime or a little after, is going to get really bad, thereās going to be a huge culling of the population, thereās going to be some fucking pathogen that comes out of some ice permafrost in Greenland thatās going to kill 50 percent of us overnight, it could even get down to the 10,000 individuals that it was in Africa 150,000 years ago that created our species, and thereās no way to predict where to be and how it will be. I hope remnants of our civilization survive. Thatās how dark my feeling is. I think people are going to get a lot more religious. Itās going to get bad.
More religious? Why?
Because when people are insecure like thatābecause of the climate changingāthey become irrational, because they canāt stand how out of control they are, and religion provides certainty. Thereās going to be a shitload of tribal warfare. And the thing thatās so heartbreaking is we have the technology to change it, and we know what we did, but weāre still these apes who are tribal and we also have nuclear weapons and weāre just going to have more wars.
And Facebook is not helping.
No, Facebookās the worst! Itās really like, psychologically we werenāt ready for how technologically advanced we could become. Like, our human brains in a general way are not able to mature at the same rate as our knowledge and technology could go forward. And I think thatās whatās going to kill us all.
Do you think Trump is going to be a two-term president?
Oh god. Iām really mourning that America is being lost to Russia, and the oligarchs of America. Because the thing is they fucked up the voting so much. Theyāre suppressing the vote amongst people of color. And the gerrymandering. And the money. And the Supreme Court. I always say I donāt have any faith anymore, except in humanity. But thatās really on the edge. Thatās almost the last faith I have thatās about to go. But I do think thereās such an energy of people who hate Trump that I feel like something good could happen this year.
Julia Sweeney: Older & Wider is a one-night engagement on February 1 at the Neptune.